Kayanja should be investigated over sodomy | Sunday Vision, May 17, 2009 | Pastor Robert Kayanja's Response Below
ACCUSATIONS, counter accusation and allegations are rife in the born again churches with the crux being sodomy. Pastor Male is at the front of the anti-sodomy campaign and here he answers questions from Sunday Vision.
http://www.yesumulungi.com/index.php/apostasy-watch/329-interview-pastor-robert-kayanja-should-be-investigated-over-sodomy.html
By Esther Namugoji
You have been accused of tarnishing Pastor Robert Kayanja’s name. Why?
We are not defaming him. What we are doing is helping victims of sodomy. It is not us saying that Kayanja sodomised. The person who filed a case at with the Police is Samson Mukisa, not Male or Ssempa. What he is claiming is just diversionary. Why do boys come up to say he has sodomised them? Some of his fellow pastors know it but they fear his connections.
There are disparities in Mukisa’s testimony.
The boy said they had a competition among the children in the street kids’ ministry. They divided into groups just for the occasion. ‘Group A’ cannot really be a name of a choir. The dates that Kayanja is quoting are not in the boy’s affidavit. If it is in a Police statement, I cannot say because the boy was alone with the Police when he made it. When we asked him he said he could not remember the exact dates.
So who knows where these dates came from? Besides, at first on UBC TV Kayanja’s assistant was quoting the affidavit. It was only after I appeared on WBS TV and said there were no dates in the affidavit that he started saying he got the dates from the Police.
You are said to be behind the kidnap, harassment and attempted murder of two people from Kayanja’s church.
We have victims who are ready to testify without being forced. Wouldn’t it be foolish to kidnap somebody and promise him money to force him to confess that Kayanja sodomised him, when there are others willing to say the same thing? We are not that desperate. That is why we called for a public inquiry into all this.
Kayanja says we hate him, we framed him and kidnapped his people. I have read the latest kidnap story and I have to call it ‘Miraclewood’. Like we have Hollywood, Bollywood, and Nollywood, this one is drama made in Miracle Centre. I, Male have no money. Why would I spend sh240m to frame Kayanja? Kyazze is not rich. Ssempa even lives in a rented house. Where do we stand to benefit?
It’s a tactical move to make people not to trust anyone who comes up to say Kayanja sodomised them. It is also aimed at scaring other boys from coming out.
Kayanja says Herbert Tumukunde was promised money in exchange for the information.
I don’t know whether money was promised. I’ve come to think that Kayanja is the one who sent the boy to us in the first place to try to trap us, thinking we’re fools. So he sends someone who he knows will later deny.
Mukisa reported his case to the Police in February. Later we read that Kayanja had offered to renovate Old Kampala Police Station. Before long, Tumukunde came to Pastor Kyazze, saying Kayanja sodomised him and that there was video evidence. Pastor Kyazze who was travelling left Kayiira in charge of helping Tumukunde sign an affidavit and go for a medical test. Tumukunde asked Kayiira to meet him at Garden City rather than Omega Healing Centre because he feared he was being followed.
The boy told Kayiira to bring a laptop to download the material at Miracle Centre. But Kayiira opted to wait at Nabunya Road. On that Friday, after waiting for a long time for the boy, he walked away.
Later he returned after being called by Tumukunde’s friend and armed men in plainclothes emerged from the bush. One of them shot in the air, forcing Kayiira to drop to the ground and he was frog-marched towards the church. As they neared the place, they made him stand up and walk. The Police was then called in to arrest him.
My question is, who arrested Kayiira? Besides, Kayiira was simply helping the boy who had reported something to him. And if your conscience is really clear, why do you send dummies to people investigating you? Why not allow them to investigate and find you innocent?
Q: Why didn’t you go to the police instead of doing the investigations yourself?
There is no law that prohibits an individual like Male or Kayiira from investigating a crime.
Two boys had come to us before after years of waiting for police to act on their report that Pastor Kitaka sodomised them. They had instead been harassed and were now nursing ideas of going to bomb Liberty Worship Centre. We counselled them to drop the idea and tried to help them go to police. Up to now those boys have never got justice.
Remember in pastor Kiwewesi’s case, the accuser Arinaitwe became the accused. Kiwewesi threatened to sue me but after the boy was arrested, that was the end of the case.
Q: He could have chosen to forgive you.
I don’t think that Kiwewesi, who did not have mercy on Arinaitwe, could have mercy on Male.
Q: Aren’t you just out to disorganise the Pentecostal churches unfairly?
The person who is disorganising the church is Kayanja. All he as to do is to resign and let one of his assistants take over while he is investigated. If church leaders had dealt with the issue instead of covering it up, this problem would not arise.
Published on: Saturday, 16th May, 2009
http://www.sundayvision.co.ug/detail.php?mainNewsCategoryId=7&newsCategoryId=130&newsId=681562
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PASTOR ROBERT KAYANJA'S RESPONSE
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They just want to tarnish my name | Sunday Vision May 17, 2009
Kayanja cries foul
MIRACLE Centre Churches founder Pastor Robert Kayanja has accused pastors Solomon Male, Martin Ssempa and Michael Kyazze of defamation, kidnap and other criminal acts relating to the allegations that he sexually abused a boy. Male says the kidnaps were cooked up by Kayanja to frame them and divert attention from the real issue. Esther Namugoji asked Kayanja about the deepening saga.
You have been accused of sexually abusing a young boy called Samuel Mukisa. Is this true?
It’s absolutely false and it saddens me to see that people will go to great depths to destroy someone’s name. I don’t know the boy, Samson Mukisa. We have looked in our records of the boys in our project and his name is not there.
Secondly, the dates he says that these things happened, that is June 25 and 26, I was not in the country. My records, itinerary and passport do not put me in Uganda from June 11 to July 2, 2008. It is very sad that someone would do something like this and you ask yourself : ‘why?’
In his affidavit, the boy mentions a choir competition at the church in which group A, which he was leading won. He says I took him to a hotel where I sodomised him. That is all false because there is no choir by that name in our church. The funny thing is that he can remember everything that happened to him but he cannot remember the hotel that I supposedly took him to. He says that a doctor wrote on his medical report that he is musilu, meaning he is mad, so that he could be taken to Kampiringisa Juvenile Rehabilitation Centre.
I have never seen a doctor writing in Luganda. Besides, Kampiringisa is not for mad people but it is for rehabilitation. That is another inconsistency. He says we bribed these people to take him there. They forget that in 2002 Parliament decided that before anyone is taken to Kampiringisa a court order has to be issued. These people are not only accusing Kayanja but they are accusing the medical fraternity, the Ministry of Gender Labour and Social Development and the administration of Kampiringisa of violating the law.
They are even accusing the Police surgeon of breaking the law. The Police surgeon examined the boy and said there was no sign of sodomy. Not satisfied, they went to a doctor in Mulago who made the same observations, just that he added that ‘however’ (sodomy) could not be ruled out.
You should get these doctors to face the press and tell us exactly what they meant by ‘however’ so that the country and the world knows on which basis ‘however’ was stated.
You accuse these pastors of tarnishing your name. Why would they do that?
I am not accusing them because I am not the accuser of the brethren. I am stating that they have tarnished my name and indeed they have, and I have proof.
What proof do you have?
The first proof is the media where they have been making their statements and there is much more. I can’t tell you but I have concrete evidence that I will present in court.
There are questions about how Pastor Robert Kayira was arrested at your church for criminal trespass.
He was arrested within our campus. Our campus stretches over 20 acres. This is private property; even though church is a public place, it has perimeters. There is security in this place, we have guards and surveillance. We had an incident in 2004 when thieves broke into our church and stole computers when we had gone for a crusade in Nairobi, Kenya. I don’t know what they were looking for — maybe we can connect it to this case. But since then we have been vigilant.
(Solomon) Male said Kayira was arrested at Nabunya Road and brought here on his knees. But there were no marks on his knees. The Police is better these days. They came here, took pictures and measured the distance of the place and they are finding him to be a liar. Besides, how could a 16-year-old convince a 30 or 40-year-old man to go to another church, past midnight? Government is asking Parliament for permission to tap private phone calls, so why would someone come to get private information without consent?
Why mislead a minor, to commit a crime with you? According to the law, the adult assumes full responsibility for the crime. They targeted him and many others — you will hear other stories — because he was vulnerable. How did he get Kyazze’s phone contact to approach him for help? Kayira does not even deny that even that night he had brought sh200,000 for the boy. He had even been promised sh600,000 and more millions later. How do you promise a young boy such huge amounts of money?
They say the kidnap of your assistant, Chris Muwonge was faked by your agents. What is the truth?
The amazing thing is that if you are a crook and a liar you presume that everyone else is a crook and a liar. Why would Male want us to believe that someone was sodomised, but not believe that someone was kidnapped? A key witness of the Kayira case was abducted and almost burnt alive by those same people.
You are talking about Herbert Tumukunde?
Yes. When I was speaking on KFM, everyone at church was glued to the radios to hear the interview. While their attention was on the radio, Tumukunde got a phone call to go and meet somebody outside. He was grabbed and beaten. They poured paraffin on him and would have burnt him if they had not heard some people walking nearby.
I have been preaching for over 25 years. My name has been associated with good things, why would I start now to punish my own children (the rehabilitated street children) like this?
Why would I bribe a young man? Nobody would want to see Tumukunde tortured like that. They have been following him, tracking and calling him, telling him to come and talk. They are now using intimidation because he has refused to respond to their plans.
He is a key witness and they think that if they eliminate him they will win the case. We have evidence of Kayira sitting with a 16-year-old boy at Garden City telling him what to say.
How did you know what they were doing?
This is a minor and he is a pastor of another church; he is not his relative. They were not talking about the next sermon. What were they doing?
How did you get the evidence? Someone could argue that everything was pre-arranged so that you could get your evidence.
If you go where there is CCTV your image is captured. I will not discuss how we got it but it is there and it will be used in court.
Pastor Solomon Male says Tumukunde first approached Pastor Kyazze saying he was sodomised by you and then told them to come for the evidence.
Because he is a liar! If he can say that, and thank God he said it because it is going to be used against him. If you have found someone doing something wrong, you go to the Police. This is not a country of mob justice, this is a country with laws.
A decent person will take him to the Police, tell the Police ‘this boy came to me with this problem, the evidence is with Pastor Kayanja’. Then the Police will come by themselves and search for the evidence. But instead they choose to be judge, prosecutor, witness and jury.
What would you do if it were you that a boy reported to for help that he has been sodomised?
You do what everybody else does. You tell him to go to the Police.
Have any come to you?
Many of our children have been picked on over different things but did we go and get guns? No.
Do you seriously believe the pastors you have named are behind the kidnaps and attempted murder?
I am not saying it is them, but there is a thread that weaves across all these cases. The questions are the same. Mukisa’s story was not about kidnap but sodomy. When they kidnapped these boys they wanted them to say the same thing. When I went to the Police, the first thing they asked me was whether I have a special room for sodomising boys. Why would they do that unless someone told them?
What do you think is behind all this?
The heart of man is wicked, that’s what the Bible says. I am dismayed that Pastor Kyazze came down to this level. From the little I know about him, he is a noble person. From the little that I know about Pastor Ssempa he is a noble man. Male, I did not know. I just saw him speaking on TV.
So what are they looking for? They had the child, the medical report and the law, isn’t that enough? Why get involved in all these things?
Whatever they say, they should have gone to the Police. Even if they wanted, there is citizen’s arrest where you tell people, “let’s take this person to the Police. We have heard this”.
But Male says you have strong connections and previous attempts to report such cases have ended up in frustration or the victims arrested.
(Laughs) But people like Jim Muhwezi and Mike Mukula definitely have very strong connections. If Muhwezi can be arrested by the Police, then who is Kayanja (not to be arrested)?
There’s talk about a former personal guard of yours who is linked to homosexuality.
I don’t know who you’re talking about. There have been so many. People come and go, they move on with their lives. There are many pastors like Pastor Karoli, Pastor Godfrey Mukasa and others who were here and have left.
Why did they leave your church?
Why do you leave your father’s house when you are getting married? Do you leave because the beds are short or you don’t like the food? They all moved on to start branches of our church. They even use the name Miracle Centre for their churches. They were even here last month for our 25th anniversary homecoming celebrations.
There are concerns that some male choir members plait their hair, wear earrings and other mannerisms that some people associate with gay people.
This is very sad. I have travelled to different places and I have seen people with plaited hair. (footballer Samuel) Eto’o has plaited hair, but he is a Christian with a wife and children. When Limit X was starting out they had what was known as ‘French cut’ hairstyles and wore rings. People said, ‘how can they do that?’ People want a form of godliness but deny the power therein. I don’t know why young people wear earrings or plait their hair. But we reach out to many youths and they come dressed in unimaginable things but after sometime they change. In the days of Tukutendereza, women would cut off their hair, but today they don’t. That does not define a person. God judges the heart.
Published on: Saturday, 16th May, 2009
http://www.sundayvision.co.ug/detail.php?mainNewsCategoryId=7&newsCategoryId=130&newsId=681561
