TD Jakes: “saving souls can wait”
Posted on October 22, 2007 by gcmwatch
Jesus’ significant declaration of the importance of one’s soul has come into direct conflict with the beliefs of mega preacher and motivational star Bishop TD Jakes. When it comes to preventing AIDS, Bishop Jakes says saving the souls of men can wait.
According to OneNewsNow, Jakes said the emphasis for now must be on saving lives. He said, “Tomorrow we can save souls.”
Tomorrow?
James 4:13-14 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
TD Jakes’ theological pendulum is swinging again. His current comments on AIDS are a stark and stunning contrast to his former position, one that many called incredibly ignorant. In August, ABC News aired AIDS in Black America, in which Jakes remarked, “The Apostle Paul didn’t write about HIV or AIDS. So we don’t know how to navigate those waters.”
Clearly, as we noted before, Bishop Jakes is repositioning his theology. He is a man who is not being influenced any more by scripture, but by culture, society and those who hold obvious disdain for biblical standards. Like Creflo Dollar, Jakes fears standing behind biblical truth about homosexuality might threaten his personal gains and popularity. Time anointed him the next Billy Graham, who also refused to say whether or not homosexuality was sinful. In this context, the world loves to applaud those who obfuscate God’s standards.
Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
During hisNational Public Radio interview, Jakes revealed more of his repositioned theology.
Commentator: You don’t stay out of the conversation necessarily when homosexuals are the issue.
Jakes: Uh, what makes you say that?
Commentator: Well uh, I’ve read that you consider homosexuality is a sin. So if you’re practicing ah homosexual you’re not going to heaven.
Jakes: You know something, I don’t know anybody of any faith who can say that they have no sin in their lives. Whether it’s homosexuality or lying on your income tax or speaking rudely to somebody at a window. What we call sin may differ from person to person, but who amongst us can say that they have no sin? Jesus said that. And he said he that is without fault among you let him cast the first stone. I’m certainly not casting any particular stones at any particular group of people. All of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but the question was about hell. And when it comes down to hell, that’s an issue that I believe in a way of salvation. I believe that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. That no man comes unto the Father saved but by him. But I’m not so dogmatic in my views, that I’m willing to condemn anybody and send them to hell, I leave that up to God.
Notice, how TD Jakes has no problem mixing Bible with cultural sentiment in order to appear neutral. In contrast, God was adamant about making a difference between what is holy and unholy, clean and unclean. He commanded Aaron (i.e. the preacher, priest) to tell the people the difference. But according to TD Jakes, that’s not his job, its God’s.
This latest collaboration with the AIDS chasers, shows even more that TD isn’t concerned with people’s eternal condition. That’s because the people he is collaborating with aren’t concerned about that either. It isnt important to them that someone may die and go to hell. For years, they have clamored to get into the black churches’ Sunday morning pulpits to preach a gospel of AIDS “prevention”. Today the AIDS chasers sanctify the “model black church” as one, not bringing people to Christ, but one who has an AIDS ministry, preferably being advised by open homosexuals. They are only concerned that AIDS is “stigmatized” in the black community. In order to be acceptable to this crowd, Bishop Jakes must adapt their ideology. But he also has to appease his church crowd. That means an abominable mix of holy and unholy.
So we ask you to decide. Who is right? Bishop TD Jakes: mega church pastor, author of over 30 best selling books, according to TIME one of America’s 25 most influential evangelicals or God’s eternal Word?
Who’s right and who will you follow?
TD Jakes becomes a conduit for false homosexual theology
http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/td-jakes-becomes-a-conduit-for-false-homosexual-theology/
http://evangelists.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/t-d-jakes-homosexual-theology/
Posted on August 29, 2008 by gcmwatch
New information alleges that Jakes is not just a false prophet who is repositioning himself as a defender of gay christian theology, but one who has attempted to draw other men into homosexual conduct with him.
In this audio (courtesy of Faith and Reason), Jakes can be heard giving credibility to the astonishing fallacy that Ruth and Naomi had a lesbian relationship. Why is TD Jakes advocating two of the favorite lies of the gay christian movement?
“Ruth turns to Naomi and says “I shall not leave thee.” She makes her statement to this woman…that sounds somewhat, somewhere in between poetry, intimacy, and borders on lesbianism. People don’t even know how to explain what Ruth said to Naomi. It makes them uncomfortable. They’re afraid to talk about it. They don’t want to teach on it. Same thing with David and Jonathan…where there were same-sex relationships getting too close, people don’t even know what to say.” (our italics)
Bishop Jakes may be unaware and his church may be ignorant of the matter, but we have talked about it and we are not afraid. But talking about what Ruth said to Naomi is one thing. Suggesting what Ruth said “borders on lesbianism” reveals the darkness in his own heart. This doesn’t border on lesbiansm, it borders on heresy! But if you think that Bishop Jakes is just engaging our minds in the usual “deep” way he’s known for, think again. His own personal issues with homosexuality color his theology. And its not good.
Perhaps that’s “too much light” coming from Bishop Jakes. That’s what one man says Jakes told him after he rejected Jakes’ numerous sexual propositions. Eventually, Richard Youngblood became the subject of a vendetta orchestrated by TD Jakes causing him to lose his marriage and family.
Youngblood, who knew and worked with Bishop Jakes since he first came into Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies (HGAAA), recently wrote that Jakes is the type of man characterized in Jude 4 as one who ”crept into the church unawares”. Youngblood’s story of Jakes’ sexual pursuit of him is nothing less than stunning.
While Bishop Jakes was not successful in his attempt to have sex with me, he did everything he could to try to convince me. After seeing that I would not fall for his tactic, he said something to me that to this day still reverberates in my ear…”sometimes to much light hurts the eyes.” At first I had no idea what he meant. Then later understood that he was saying to me that he had revealed too much of himself to me. DUH!!! What an understatement from such an articulate man. This is where my personal warfare began. Questions began to surface in my head like…”what kind of sign was I giving off that made him think he could approach me?” Then the warfare took on a feeling that I felt a need to prove my manhood. I began to have sex with as many women as would allow me to satisfy my lust to prove my manhood. All the while protecting his”too much light.”
The saddest part to this warfare is that because of the information that I had, Bishop was afraid that I would use it against him so he began to forecast me as a trouble maker and a liar. All of the mutual friend [sic] that we had received phone calls and were told not to invite me to speak at their events. Obviously because of his reputation, he was believed and I was not. He even sowed seed [sic] in my home between my wife and I by telling her that I was no longer welcomed to the church but that she could continue coming. That marriage eventually ended in divorce.”
There will be those, who will without the slightest hesitation, defend the men they have made idols. We have much evidence of that right here on this site.
A threat?
When we first exposed the connection between Bishops Jakes and Taylor, we were sent a letter (click thumbnail for larger view) claiming the post was “libelous and grossly inaccurate”. Sources later told GCM Watch Taylor was thrown under the bus by Watkins and Jakes in order to cover their own involvement. Bishop Andrew Merritt left the organization after he became aware that HGAAA leadership was complicit and condoning of homosexual activity.
In an age where the church languishes under a laodicean spirit, nothing is offensive to God. All are to be celebrated and tolerated because, they say, God is all about love. But beware false prophets who pervert the word of the Lord for their own gain. Johnathan Edwards preached in 1741 that when God rises up, no man can prevent him from exacting judgment upon those who do wickedness.
There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men’s hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands.-He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defence from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God’s enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down.”
We would do well to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God now before he has to break in peices the brazen pride of the church. Even now, in what seems to be the apex of his power and influence, TD Jakes should repent and be converted lest the Lord come and remove his candlestick. Those who have followed this man, should repent and ask God to give them a clean heart and a right spirit. Pastors who are in “covenant” with this man should repent and remove themselves from this unholy relationship built on the lust for prestige, money and influence*. And if you are currently in a sexual relationship with any bishop, pastor, gospel artist or church leader repent and remove yourself from it before God opens the door of discipline on you.
·
According to the PHIPA fellowship disclaimer, even though you apply and become part of the
PHIPA, TD Jakes does not
endorse you or even encourage attendance at your church. Neither are you
legally affiliated with TD Jakes or any of his subsidary ministries. But
in order to be a member of the PHIPA, you
must send in MONTHLY “tithes and offerings”. In plain language,
you are simply a $$ sign to TD Jakes. Although he offers you vague,
religious sounding platitudes look at the stark specificities of what he requires
you to do for him. That’s his
definition of “covenant”.
- Genesis 19 – God destroys Sodom and the cities of the plains for its wickedness namely unrepentant pride in its sexual sins and human injustices.
- Numbers 25 – God send a plague of deadly sexual disease among Isreal after the men of Isreal give themselves over to sexual pleasure with Moabite women. The plague destroys 24,000 men and would have killed many more were it not for the zealous action of Phineas.
- Judges 19,20 – After homosexuals in the tribe of Benjamin
- commit rape and murder, then reject the other 11 tribes’ appeal to repent, civil war erupts plunging Isreal into a bloodbath. Only 1000 of the 25,000 men in Benjamin are left alive. This, the writer of Judges somberly observes, is because “every man did what was right in his own eyes”.
- 1 Kings 14, 24, 15:12 – Jeroboam, known as one of Isreal;s most wicked kings set in motion events that led to the destruction of the Northern Kingdom. A benchmark of his reign was the tolerance of idolatry and homosexuality.
TD Jakes is not alone in leading people astray. There are religious pied pipers you revere and blindly follow, while rejecting the true knowledge of God. Sadly, if you do not repent and turn away, you will be destroyed because you reject that which can save you.
TD Jakes a false Preacher
http://www.forgottenword.org/jakes.html
T. D.
Jakes grew up in a Oneness Pentecostal denomination which denies the essential
Christian doctrine of the Trinity [The Oneness Pentecostal denomination was
declared a heresy by the Assemblies of God when it took organizational form in
1917]. When asked by Christian leaders to clarify if he believes in
the Trinity [As defined in the Athanasian Creed] he will not clear up this
matter. He refuses to give a clear answer as to what he means by
"manifestations" when referring to the Trinity. Here is a portion
of the Doctrinal Statement from the Potters House Website:
We believe in one God
who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation,
being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in
His authority. We believe in the Father who is God Himself, Creator of the universe. (Gen 1:1; John 1:1)
We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (Col 2:9)
He suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead for our total salvation (Luke 3:21-22; Philippians 2:5-11).
We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 3:36; John 3:31-32; John 14:6).
We believe in the Holy Spirit who is God indwelling, empowering and regenerating the believer. This Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 14:26) (emphasis mine)
So, given his background and his lack of clarification on this matter when asked by Christian leaders, there is justification to label him as a non-Trinitarian until he explains otherwise.
T. D.
Jakes denies the essential Christian doctrine of the Trinity. His view is
one God playing three different roles or manifestations. He believes in a
god that appears in three different "manifestations." Let me
quote him, "...One God, but manifest in...three different ways, Father in
creation, Son in redemption, Holy Spirit in regeneration."
Like one man who is a pastor, father, and husband, this view is called modalism
and it is heresy.
T. D. Jakes:
"God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Questioner: My first
question would be, the Trinity would be defined as one God Who's revealed
Himself in three distinct Persons, each co-equal and co-eternal. How
important is it for the believing Christian to hold to this belief?T. D. Jakes:
"God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
T. D. Jakes: I think it's very, very significant that we first of all study the Trinity apart from salvation, and first of all that we embrace Christ and come to Him and come to know Who He is. Having come to know Who He is, then we begin to deal with the Trinity, which I believe is a very complex issue. The Trinity, the term Trinity, is not a biblical term, to begin with. It's a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I'm not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, "Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside Him there is no other." When God got ready to make a man that looked like Him, He didn't make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul and spirit. We have one God, but He is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration. It's very important that we understand that, but I think that the first thing that every believer needs to do is to approach God by faith, and then having approached Him by faith, then they need to sit up under good teaching so that they can begin to understand who the God is that they have believed upon."
("Living by the Word" on KKLA, hosted by John Coleman, Aug. 23, 1998)
"CRI Coordinator of Research Sam Wall spoke over the telephone with Pastor Lawrence Robinson, Director of Ministry Affairs at the Potter's House, inquiring about their view of the Trinity. Robinson affirmed that Jakes denies the biblical position of the Trinity, at one point saying that the Roman Catholic Church introduced the concept of three gods. Robinson gave some modalistic illustrations of the Trinity and said that Jakes has always held this position. Twice after that, Wall e-mailed Pastor Robinson to confirm the content of their discussion. Robinson never responded. Wall noted in his e-mail, "Should I not hear from you by e-mail, I will assume that these statements by you are correct."
(The Man, His Ministry, And His Movement: Concerns About The Teachings Of T. D. Jakes)
Warren Smith: "T.D. Jakes is very popular in the evangelical world, and some people say he denies the doctrine of the Trinity."
Norman Geisler: "That's correct. He does. It's an old, old heresy in the Christian church called modalism. I know T.D. Jakes is very popular, and I know people don't like his ministry being called a cult, but it is. It would have been condemned by any orthodox church down through the centuries."
Warren Smith: "What does it say about the evangelical church that these heretical teachings have been allowed to creep in so readily, and even when they are identified as extra-biblical, or cultic, a lot of evangelicals just wink?"
Norman Geisler: "It says the evangelical church in America is about 3,000 mile wide and an inch deep. Doctrinally, we are very shallow. In North Carolina we are in what is called the Bible Belt, but our problem is that we don't have enough Bible under our belts. We have enough religion to makes us susceptible, but not enough doctrine to make us discerning. You can't recognize error until you can recognize the truth. I'm told that when government experts want to train people to recognize counterfeit currency, they study genuine currency. The same is true with doctrine."
("30 Minutes With Norman Geisler" World Newspaper Publishing)
"T.D. Jake's letter completely fails to answer charges that he denies the doctrine of the Trinity. Everything he says could be affirmed by any good leader of the (Oneness, vehemently anti-Trinitarian) United Pentecostal Church, for although he distinguishes the Son from the Father, he does so only by distinguishing the human Son from the divine Father—the classic United Pentecostal belief, as documented in my book "Jesus Only" Churches (Zondervan, 1997) and defended in many UPC publications, such as David Bernard's The Oneness of God. Until he clearly affirms that Father, Son, and Spirit are eternally distinct Persons, not merely that they are "three" and "one"—never defining his terms—he should be considered anti-Trinitarian and by no means welcomed to preach in Christian circles."
(E. Calvin Beisner, Author of God in Three Persons (Tyndale House, 1984) and "Jesus Only" Churches (Zondervan, 1997). Associate Professor of Interdisciplinary Studies Covenant College, Lookout Mountain, Georgia)
"In his rebuttal Jakes never affirms an ontological Trinity but only an economic one. He speaks of different functions the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit perform, but then he clarifies that he does not believe in three Gods, by which it is fairly clear he means Persons. Even the illustration of H20 taking the forms of ice, water, and steam says nothing about three persons, only three manifestations, and is in fact a common illustration used by modalists to explain their view. The key tip-off that Jakes is a dyed-in-the-wool modalist is his unwavering insistence — both before our article was published and even in response to our article — on using the word manifestations rather than persons in regard to the Trinity. Sabellius consistently avoided the use of the term “persons” (Greek: hypostasis) in favor of the term “manifestations.”...Actually, all of the passages Jakes cites that use the term “manifestation” refer to the Incarnation of Christ (the “manifestation” of the Second Person of the Trinity in human form), except 1 Corinthians 12:7, which speaks of the “manifestation” of the Spirit; that is, the charismatic gifts. None of them are concerned with the doctrine of the Trinity per se, and therefore they do not use the word “manifestations” in the way that Jakes and Oneness teachers use it. In light of all this, it is hard to believe Jakes when he says that the language in his ministry’s doctrinal statement does not derive from modalism. If in fact he believes in the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, then he can clear this controversy up and satisfy all Trinitarians by simply affirming in his doctrinal statement and in all of his ministry’s teachings that not only does he believe in the Trinity, but he also believes the Trinity comprises three eternally distinct Persons, who together are the one and only Almighty God. If he cannot bring himself to do that and yet still insists that he holds to the Trinity, then evangelicals should understand that it is he, and not his critics, who uses clever semantics to obfuscate the truth."
(Elliot Miller, "T. D. Jakes Responds to The Journal")
"Don't argue with people about foolishness. Don't argue about the Godhead--the Bible says it's a mystery. If it's a mystery that means it's a supernatural thing and everybody who thinks they understand it--really don't. It's impossible to explain how one God can be three persons and three persons be one God. And you're gonna blow your computer and short circuit your p.c. trying to explain something that you don't even understand. You can't even explain how a brown cow eats green grass and produces white milk. So you know you can't explain God. So just shut up arguing about it and say it's a mystery. All we know is that He's Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration and it's all good."
(T. D. Jakes, "Bible Answer Man Show," Hank Hanegraaff, Audio-Clip, June 3, 2005)
Note: T. D. Jakes says it's foolishness to argue about the Godhead! So when a Jehovah's Witness tells you that Jesus is not God we should just be silent and accept them? He tells us to shut up about it? This is outrageous! After telling us to "Shut up about it" T. D. Jakes goes on to "Explain" the Godhead using a oneness (Modalism) definition.
"And God said, 'Let us. Let usssssss...'" says Jakes, and then digresses: "...One God, but manifest in...three different ways, Father in creation, Son in redemption, Holy Spirit in regeneration."
(T. D. Jakes, "Spirit Raiser," Time Magazine, September 17, 2001)
"If you need a supernatural thing to occur from God I dare you to give tonight. There's an anointing I believe, there's going to be a supernatural anointing through the word of God. Somebody just give God any kind of praise you got right now! Many people do not understand if you're going to receive something from the Lord you have to be prepared to invest something! So many times people want things out of life without any kind of investment! You can't in the natural, in a stock market you can't get a return on a stock where you have not bought shares. If there's no investment you have no right to wait at the mailbox for a return where you have not made any investment."
(T. D. Jakes, "Bible Answer Man Show," Hank Hanegraaff, Audio-Clip, September 21, 2004)
"My brothers and sisters the power of life and death is in the tongue. You can have whatever you say."
(T. D. Jakes, T. D. Jakes During Intermission of "The Bone Collector Part II," TBN, August 12, 2004)
"You gotta speak to stuff or it won't change. Are you following what I'm saying?"
(T. D. Jakes, "The Bone Collector Part II," TBN, August 12, 2004)
"When you stop talking back you stop fighting back. Speak to it! You lose your tongue you've lost your fighting power. Speak to it!"
(T. D. Jakes, "The Bone Collector Part II," TBN, August 12, 2004)
"It's what you say to yourself that gets you healed. If you say that you won't be healed you won't be healed. If you say that you are broke you will stay broke. Oh! But I came to serve notice on the Devil. The Bible says, 'The power of life and death is in the tongue. Slap somebody and say, 'You better speak to yourself.'"
(T. D. Jakes, "Seize the Moment," Woman Thou Art Loosed, 2000 Atlanta)
"Did you know that the Bible says, 'You shall have whatever you say.' Now, don't you say that if you don't want no increase. If all you want is what you had don't say that anymore. But, if you want something beyond what you have ever seen, shout increase! The power of life and death is in your tongue. When you open your mouth you release power all over the room! Shout increase!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Bible Answer Man Show," Hank Hanegraaff, Audio-Clip, September 14, 2004)
"I want the privilege of praying over your seed. I want to pray over your seed and it would be ridiculous for me to pray that God to give it back to you. Because if all He was going to do was give it back to you, you ought to keep it and then you would just have it. That's ridiculous! You got a $100 or a $1,000 and you're gonna give a $1,000 and I tell you God is going to give $1,000 back. Well, you just broke even! You could have kept that $1,000 and not gone through the trouble! Come on church folk! But God is going to give you some more on top of that. And as you sow it [a person shouts, 'Increase!'] I dare you to say it again, [The audience shouts, 'Increase!']. Oh My God! Woo, we're about to get ours in here. I don't know what you're getting out there. Well, we're about, somebody shout, 'Increase!'"
(T. D. Jakes, "Bible Answer Man Show," Hank Hanegraaff, Audio-Clip, July 30, 2004)
"I want to challenge you to sow and come into agreement with me. I believe you don't have to go for it, you can sow for it! And God will bring it to pass in your life. I want you to write me, put in your prayer request and sow a special seed. Believe God for supernatural resurrection harvest in your life!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Heirs of The Promise I," After the sermon T. D. Jakes said this while in the studio, March 21, 2005)
"I am excited! I have been claiming Genesis 26:12. It is powerful! It is life changing! Talks about Isaac sowing a seed and receiving a 100 fold return in that same year. I believe that as you sow God is going to give you a supernatural harvest in your life! I believe it will be at least a 100 fold! Some of you are going to break into that next dimension of 1,000 times more that I've been teaching around the country. I want you to partner with me so that you can get into this flow...Now write me and let me agree with you in prayer over your seed. As we harvest in this same year 100 fold, a 1,000 times more than expected!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Confronting Your Promises I," After the sermon T. D. Jakes said this while in the studio, March 20, 2005)
"When you sow seeds into this kind of anointing it releases the power of God that you can harvest. And I want you to get this scripture and read it and believe God with me Genesis 26:12. As we sow, I believe that we're going to experience a resurrection...Genesis 26:12, it says, 'Then Isaac sowed in that land and received in that same year a 100 fold and the Lord blessed him.' This year is your year to receive. You need to sow it and receive it in this year. This is your year of destiny."
(T. D. Jakes, "Heirs of The Promise II," After the sermon T. D. Jakes said this while in the studio, March 22, 2005)
"Jakes told those gathered that they have to go and claim the inheritance that God has promised them and know that it's theirs. And then he addressed critics who fault him for profiting from "selling religion." 'You can't get upset with me, because I choose to claim what God has promised me,' he said. 'Don't get upset with me! Don't hate the player; hate the game,' a revved up Jakes yelled over cheers."
(T. D. Jakes, "T.D. Jakes enthralls with energetic oratory," Denver Post.com")
"Don't deny me my joy you player hater you...How dare you sit there and roll your eyes and pass notes when you see me get my breakthrough! you wasn't there when I was in hell's kitchen coming out with some smoke in my coat."
(T. D. Jakes, "Spellbreaker," Tape from his ministry)
"I was staying in a little raggity house down in Dunbar West Virginia and the lights were half way on and half way off most of the time. And the roof was leaking and everything and one night I got up and started walking around in my house and I spoke to the house. And I said, 'House, I don't believe you!' I said, 'You look like I'm down and you look like I'm broke and you look like I'll never be anything. And you look like I'll never get up and you look like I'm bound to the ghetto. But, I just want you to know house, I don't believe you! You're lying to me! You're not who I am and you're not where I'm going and I don't believe You!' I believe that the word that is in me is stronger than the circumstances that are against me. Ah, you all aren't hearing what I'm talking about. You got to start talking to situations or they will take over your life."
(T. D. Jakes, "The Bone Collector Part II," TBN, August 12, 2004)
"Oh! I wish you would sit there and look funny! I wish you would act like you always choose the right door! I wish you would get quiet. I dare you to get quiet on me! I'll start prophesying and tell all your business! You got 12 doors in front of you now! You better say something before I go off! I will go off! I will go off!...I wish you would jump on me! I'll fight everything in here!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Don't Get lost In The House," From the series "Home Remedies" TV1 Direct T.V. Channel 241. May 1, 2005)
"My God! I'm preaching, I think I'll get my own tape this morning."
(T. D. Jakes, "The Invisible King," TBN June 27, 2004)
"Ya'll don't hear what I'm preaching. I'm preaching so good I'm about to 'Amen' myself! Oh!...Oh God! I'm preaching good! Hallelujah!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Give it up, Have it All II," TBN, April 15, 2005)
"Oh! That's good! I may have to get this tape myself!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Mega Fest 2005," The Church Channel, August 18, 2005)
"This tape is so good I'm going to buy this one myself!"
(T. D. Jakes, "Reality Check," From the series "Fight For The Family." TBN August 19, 2005)
"Oh dear! I'm going to buy this tape myself. Give me two tapes! Hold two tapes in the back."
(T. D. Jakes, "Dealing With The Unexpected," TBN, November 28, 2004)
Note: Pride is one sign of many that a false teacher possesses (1 Timothy 6:4; Jude 8-19; 2 Peter 2:10-18).
"You're entitled to have wellness in your body. Stop begging for what you're entitled to."
(T. D. Jakes, "God Never Meant For You To Lose," TBN, July 29, 2004)
"We believe that it is God’s
will to heal and deliver His people today as He did in the days of the first
Apostles. It is by the stripes of Jesus that we are healed, delivered and
made whole. We have authority over sickness, disease, demons, curses, and every
circumstance in life."
(T. D. Jakes Doctrinal Statement, website.)
(T. D. Jakes Doctrinal Statement, website.)
Note:
He wears glasses yet believes that we shouldn't be sick. Why are his eyes
sick?
“The myth of the poor Jesus needs to be destroyed, because it’s holding people back.”
(Kaylois Henry, “Bishop Jakes Is Ready. Are You?,” The Dallas Observer magazine, June 20-26, 1996, pg. 31. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
“Jakes, who drives a Mercedes, has moved with his wife and their five children to a luxurious seven-bedroom home with swimming pool in the White Rock Lake area of Dallas. He said the home cost more than $1 million. ‘I do think we need some Christians who are in first class as well as coach,’ Jakes said.”
(The Fort Worth Star Telegram reports. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
"Jakes lives with wife Serita and their
five children in a Dallas mansion, complete with an indoor swimming pool and
bowling alley...And while some accuse Jakes of being
driven by the dollar and not the divine - his transportation stable consists of
a Mercedes-Benz, a Bentley, a BMW, a Lexus and a jet...Indeed, during MegaFest's kickoff, Jakes
mentioned his sponsors more than he mentioned God.
During the worship service, dozens of Potter's House ushers sprinted throughout
the Georgia Dome, collecting purple duffel bags full of money and checks made
out to T.D. Jakes Enterprises...The pastor says his income comes from his media
enterprises, not from church tithes. And he dismisses such
questions as having racist overtones."“The myth of the poor Jesus needs to be destroyed, because it’s holding people back.”
(Kaylois Henry, “Bishop Jakes Is Ready. Are You?,” The Dallas Observer magazine, June 20-26, 1996, pg. 31. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
“Jakes, who drives a Mercedes, has moved with his wife and their five children to a luxurious seven-bedroom home with swimming pool in the White Rock Lake area of Dallas. He said the home cost more than $1 million. ‘I do think we need some Christians who are in first class as well as coach,’ Jakes said.”
(The Fort Worth Star Telegram reports. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
("Building an empire to empower," T.D. Jakes may lead a Dallas mega-church, but that's not all he does. By Annette John-Hall, Inquirer Staff Writer, Philadelphia Inquirer posted August 22, 2005)
"The Jakeses and their five children live in a 9,689-square-foot mansion on White Rock Lake, appraised at more than $3.3 million. He loves to shop and wears exquisitely tailored suits and expensive shoes. He owns a jet. "Anybody who has sold 8 million books shouldn't have to justify why they live in a nice house," Bishop Jakes said."
(T. D. Jakes, Fort Wayne.Com, "Preacher extends his reach with film, but some fault posh lifestyle")
Note: That may be true for an unbeliever, but what about for a man of the cloth living in a multi-million dollar house? Dr. J. Vernon McGee has well said, "Whenever you find a minister who is rich, watch out. Folk are not supposed to get rich in the ministry," Commentary on 2 Corinthians 6:8-10, page 117.
I drive a: "Lexus and Bentley"
(T. D. Jakes, Fort Wayne.Com, "Preacher extends his reach with film, but some fault posh lifestyle")
Note: On the Bentley Motors website here is a sample of prices for used Bentleys (Model year then price): 1) 2003--$185,000 2) 2005--$175,000 3) 2000--$159,000 4) 2002-- $279,000 5) 2004--$239,000.
“I think that Jesus is the product,” says author and televangelist T.D. Jakes, who is currently bishop at The Potters House, a primarily African-American Pentecostal church in Dallas. “When the product is excellent, it doesn't require a big sales pitch.”
(MSNBC News, "Do God and money mix?" March 31, 2005)
Note: Jesus is a product? Jesus is Lord of lords and Kings of kings--the creator of all things. Jesus is not a 'product' nor should He be compared to one.
“Scripture teaches that receiving Christ as your personal Savior does not necessarily make you a son of God, but if you choose to do so, the power (authority) and right to do so is present. ... Just being saved does not make you a son of God, ...only those who are willing to be led by the Spirit actually realize and manifest the sonship of God.”
(T.D. Jakes, "The Harvest," pg. 46-47. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
"The one and only prophetess Juanita Bynum will be with us tonight...We're blessed because of you. We're blessed because of your ministry. We're blessed because God has raised up that voice...We thank God for this woman of God...Give God praise for prophetess Juanita Bynum...She has Revelation Knowledge from the Lord."
(T. D. Jakes, "TBN," July 6, 2004. Describing false prophet Juanita Bynum to the world)
He refers to immoral, lustful and sinful thinking as merely “little boy thoughts.”
(T.D. Jakes, "Loose That Man and Let Him Go," pg. 5. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
Jakes refers to an adulterous man as a “frightened little boy” and a wife beater as a “terrified little boy.”
(Jakes, "Loose That Man," pg. 123-124. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
He states that, "because the teachers in Jesus’ day listened to Him as a child it boosted His self-esteem."
(Jakes, "Loose That Man," pg. 3. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
Jakes mentions that he purchased (for all the men in his organization) subscriptions to the secular GQ Magazine to help them learn about manhood.
(Jakes, "Loose That Man," pg. 42. PFO Quarterly Journal Article)
"...Timely and riveting..."
(T. D. Jakes, Endorsing Paul Crouches Book, "Shadow of the Apocalypse.")
Note:
Paul Crouches new book on prophecy (The Shadow of the Apocalypse) is filled
with bible codes.
He is
scheduled to appear at Mega Fest 2004 with; Creflo Dollar, Juanita Bynum, Joyce
Meyer, Bishop Eddie Long, and Paula White.
T.D Jakes played this
clip of Creflo Dollar on his show on May 24, 2004. He called Creflo one
of "God's
finest."
Creflo teaches that Christians are gods. He also says that Christians are
not sinners and that Jesus did not come as God or perfect. He also
teaches that it is blasphemy if you don't believe that Christians are gods."You get that covenant on your mind and everything you pray. You pray with that covenant on your mind everything you give, you give with that covenant on your mind. Everything you lay hands you lay hands with the covenant on your mind, you look up to God and say, “ God you got to do it, you can’t lie, you swore by yourself, it’s impossible for you to lie, you said you got to do it. Now you got to do this thing.” And this is how God responded to someone who knows their covenant; here is Moses that got right before God’s face and God was getting ready to kill all of Israel. Because you know he was trying to give them the law and he comes back and they are partying and smoking refer, they building some golden calf you know Rick James somewhere in the corner talking about, “pass me the joint.”
They
doing all that kind of stuff and God said, “Look here, here is what I am going
to do. I ‘m going to kill all of them,” and Moses got in God’s face watch
this and he said, “No you will not.” Now how do you figure a man
can get before God and tell God what he is not going to do. I will tell
you how on the basis of the covenant, he said, “Your not going to kill them
because you have a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” And the bible
said that God repented or He changed his mind. Quit going before God like
a bunch of spiritual sissies and go before God with the covenant on your mind,
quit whining before God and go before God like you know your rights.
All
right, I am going to do something here that it’s going to start a revival or a
riot. I’m going to say something, now watch this you will be able to
identity a covenant person by how they act. [He gets on one knee looking
down] Watch this we are all to familiar with this, I bow down on my bended knee,
“Dear kind and heavenly Father I know that I’m not worth nothing Lord. I
know I’m just a filthy rag. I know I ought to go to hell, but Lord if you
could just stop by a little while; everything is going to be all right.
Ummm, Lord I need you to stop by just a little while I know I ain’t no good,
Jesus. But if you could stop by everything will be all right.
Please Jesus Oh stop by. Please Ah Please! Please! Jesus, Oh
Lord, I Know I Don’t Deserve it Jesus, Please, Please. For Christ sake we
pray. Amen and thank God.”
That
is a guy that doesn't understand his covenant. This is a guy that’s got
to beg God because he doesn't’ understand his covenant. A covenant person
will go before God like this [Standing up looking up at God], “Father in
the name of Jesus I am the righteousness of God. I have a blood bought
right to have healing in my body; I have a blood right to have a sound mind. I
have a blood bought right. I have a blood bought right to get answers to
my prayers and when I am trouble. I have a blood bought right to come
before your throne and to ask you for help in a time of trouble. Now
according to John 16:33, you said whatever I pray in the name of Jesus it shall
be given onto me. You said in Mark 11:24 if I believe I receive it, then
I shall have it. Therefore, I pray it and say in the name of Jesus and I
believe that I receive it in Jesus name, Amen and good night.”
Covenant!
Covenant! God has not called you to be a bunch of wimpy men. He’s
called you to be covenant men. He’s called you to men of power. Men
of the anointing, He’s called you to be wealthy men."
(Creflo Dollar, Man Power 2003, "Ready For Multiplication," T. D. Jakes Show, May 24, 2004)
(Creflo Dollar, Man Power 2003, "Ready For Multiplication," T. D. Jakes Show, May 24, 2004)
Note:
Creflo Dollar mocks people that humbly bow their head in reverence and mourn
over their sins in view of God's absolute holiness. Jesus himself
commends people that mourn over their sins in their prayers (See Luke
18:9-14). Here are some examples in Scripture that show men of God bowing
their head and mourning over their sins and great men of God like Isaiah and
Paul mourning over their sinfulness:
"And
at the evening sacrifice I arose up from my heaviness; and having rent my
garment and my mantle, I fell
upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the LORD my God, And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift
up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and
our trespass is grown up unto the heavens," Ezra
9:5-6.
"Two
men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a
publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank
thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even
as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I
possess. And the publican,
standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote
upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this
man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and
he that humbleth himself shall be exalted," Luke 18:9-14.
"I
have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself,
and repent in dust and ashes," Job 42:5-6.
"For
I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will
is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but
the evil which I would not, that I do...O wretched man that I am! Who
shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Romans 7:18-19, 24.
"Then said I, Woe is me! For I am
undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a
people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the
King, the LORD of hosts," Isaiah 6:5.
"Thus
saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where
is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made,
and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look,
even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word," Isaiah 66:1-2.
"I
indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. But he that cometh after
me is mightier than I, whose
shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you
with the Holy Ghost, and with fire," Matthew 3:11.
"The
centurion answered and said, Lord, I
am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof:
but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed...When Jesus
heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I
have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel,"
Mathew 8:8, 10.
"The T. D. Jakes of the next generation could be sitting somewhere back in the back writing notes to somebody across the hall. The next Rod Parsley. The next Creflo Dollar could have been high last night...'How could that be possible? Great men of God like you--they grow up just walking on clouds.'"
(T. D. Jakes, "Don't Get lost In The House," From the series "Home Remedies" TV1 Direct T.V. Channel 241. May 1, 2005)
"The T. D. Jakes of the next generation could be sitting somewhere back in the back writing notes to somebody across the hall. The next Rod Parsley. The next Creflo Dollar could have been high last night...'How could that be possible? Great men of God like you--they grow up just walking on clouds.'"
(T. D. Jakes, "Don't Get lost In The House," From the series "Home Remedies" TV1 Direct T.V. Channel 241. May 1, 2005)
Ed
Young Jr., pastor of Fellowship
Church in Grapevine,
called Bishop Jakes one of the best communicators he's ever heard.
"I have a collection of Bishop Jakes videos in my library," said
Young, whose church has a weekend attendance of 19,000. "When I'm
feeling down and blasé, watching him inspires me."
(T. D. Jakes, Fort Wayne.Com, "Preacher extends his reach with film, but some fault posh lifestyle")
(T. D. Jakes, Fort Wayne.Com, "Preacher extends his reach with film, but some fault posh lifestyle")
Note:
What a sad day it is when our shepherds that are supposed to guard the flock
are promoting a man that denies the Trinity.
"His holiness, John Paul II was
truly a dedicated and courageous messenger of God. His legacy will be a
model that all of us should follow. His Holiness was not only a leader of
the church, but also a leader of the world. His life was an example everyone
can learn from. His mission to spread the Good News of faith throughout
the world, and his dedication to human rights was an inspiration."
(T. D. Jakes, "Bishop T. D. Jakes Statement on The Passing of Pope John Paul II")
(T. D. Jakes, "Bishop T. D. Jakes Statement on The Passing of Pope John Paul II")
T.D. Jakes
Embraces Doctrine of the Trinity, Moves Away from 'Oneness' View
January 27, 2012
8:40PM
Michael Foust,
Baptist Press
Jakes -- long a controversial figure among evangelicals because of his past unwillingness to affirm the Trinity -- stated his belief Wednesday (Jan. 27) at the second-annual Elephant Room (theelephantroom.com), an event that brings together Christian figures from different backgrounds for what organizers call "conversations you never thought you'd hear." This year's Elephant Room was held at Harvest Bible Chapel in Illinois and was simulcast to other locations nationwide.
Jakes -- who once made the cover of Time magazine, which asked if he might be the next Billy Graham -- said he was saved in a Oneness Pentecostal church. Oneness Pentecostalism denies the Trinity and claims that instead of God being three persons, He is one person. In Oneness Pentecostalism, there is no distinction between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. It is also called "modalism," and it is embraced by the United Pentecostal Church International.
"I began to realize that there are some things that could be said about the Father that could not be said about the Son," Jakes said. "There are distinctives between the working of the Holy Spirit and the moving of the Holy Spirit, and the working of the redemptive work of Christ. I'm very comfortable with that." [See the transcript of Jakes' comments at the end of this story.]
The doctrine of the Trinity -- embraced by all three historical branches of Christianity -- holds that God is three persons, each person is distinct, each person is fully God, and that there is one God.
Several key Bible passages, Jakes said, impacted his transition.
"Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River, for example, coming up out of the water [and] the Holy Spirit descends like a dove, the Father speaks from heaven -- and we see all three of them on one occasion," he said, "or in Genesis [where God said,] 'let us make man in our own likeness' or Elohim -- He is the one God who manifests Himself in a plurality of ways. Or what Jesus says, 'I am with the Father, and the Father is in me.'"
Jakes added: "That began to make me rethink some of my ideas and some of the things that I was taught. I got kind of quiet about it for a while. Because when you are a leader and you are in a position of authority, sometimes you have to back up and ponder for a minute, and really think things through."
James MacDonald of Harvest Bible Chapel of Rolling Meadows, Ill., and Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle interviewed Jakes.
Not everything Jakes said will make Trinitarians happy. He said he considers both sides of the issue to be Christians, and that his church has affiliations with both camps. He also said "we're all saying the same thing." But under questioning from Driscoll, Jakes again affirmed the Trinity:
Driscoll: "Do you believe this is the perfect, inspired, final authority Word of God?" [Driscoll held up a Bible.]
Jakes: "Absolutely."
Driscoll: "So you believe there's one God, three Persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit? You believe Jesus was fully God, fully Man?"
Jakes: "Absolutely."
Driscoll: "You believe He died on the cross in our place for our sins?"
Jakes: "Absolutely."
Driscoll: "You believe He bodily rose from death?"
Jakes: "Absolutely."
Driscoll: "You believe that He is the judge of the living and the dead?"
Jakes: "Yes."
Driscoll: "And you believe that apart from Jesus there is no salvation?"
Jakes: "Absolutely."
Jakes said he prefers the term "manifestations" instead of the term "persons" -- a position he has stated before.
He also said that "many of the circles that I came from would never allow me in their pulpit [now] because they consider me a heretic."
Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.
"It is encouraging to see T.D. Jakes moving away from the heresy of modalism," said Malcolm B. Yarnell III, director of the Center for Theological Research at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. "However, we should pray for him and exhort him privately and publicly to move into biblical orthodoxy without equivocation. Much of what Jakes stated about God the Trinity in this interview was correct. For instance he noted the simultaneous but distinct movements of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the baptism of Jesus. This is very true, though I might have described it differently."
Yarnell said Jakes incorrectly interprets 1 Timothy 3:16, which says "He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." Jakes uses that verse to argue for his usage of "manifestations," but Yarnell says the passage is speaking only of Jesus -- not the other members of the Godhead.
"The only 'manifestation' to which 1 Timothy 3:16 refers is the incarnation of God in Christ," Yarnell said. "... Jakes simply does not offer a proper exegetical basis for his unique theological term." [Yarnell's complete statement on Jakes' comments follows this story.]
Russell D. Moore, dean of the school of theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said he takes "Bishop Jakes at his word that he holds to Trinitarianism."
"But there's still some elephants left in the room," Moore said. "First of all, Bishop Jakes isn't a new convert being discipled in the basics of the Christian faith. He is a celebrity mega-church pastor. Moreover, Trinitarianism isn't the 'meat' of some advanced doctrine, but the most foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. A Christian pastor affirming least-common-denominator Christian doctrine should hardly be news, much less an elephant in the room. This can only happen in an American evangelicalism that values success, novelty and celebrity more than church accountability."
Moore added, "There still stands the issue of the prosperity gospel Bishop Jakes preaches. Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Copeland are Trinitatians but their health and wealth gospel is different from the message of Jesus and His apostles."
--30--
Michael Foust is associate editor of Baptist Press. DVDs of the Elephant Room II can be purchased at TheElephantRoom.com. Get Baptist Press headlines and breaking news on Twitter (@BaptistPress), Facebook (Facebook.com/BaptistPress) and in your email (baptistpress.com/SubscribeBP.asp).
Following is the transcript of the conversation between T.D. Jakes, Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald on the Trinity, beginning after Jakes was asked about his background:
Jakes: My father was Methodist. My mother was Baptist. My father's family was Methodist as far back as I can remember. I was raised in a Baptist church. But I was raised in church but I really didn't have a real committed experience with Christ until my father died. When my father died, I had a real experience with Christ -- a real conversion in Christ, and I had it in a Oneness church.
Driscoll: By Oneness meaning [what]? -- for those who do not know all the theological terms.
Jakes: Well it would be like, how do I explain it? It was not a UPC [United Pentecostal] church, in spite of the blogs. It was not a UPC church, but somewhat similar.
Driscoll: Jesus only, modalism?
Jakes: "Jesus only -- modalism" which is still a theological term. ... But Christians and Christians [who] believe in Jesus Christ, believe He died and rose from the dead, coming back again -- all the same things that you do. Pentecostal Christians by its virtue. But how they described and explained the Godhead in a traditional oneness sense is very, very different from how traditional Trinitarians describe the Gospel. And I was in that church and raised in that church for a number of years. My problem with it as I began to go on and as God began to develop my ministry, I started preaching from that church and from that pulpit and that sort of thing. But I'm also informed by the infiltration from my Baptist experience and my Methodist experience, so I ended up Metha-Bapti-Costal in a way. So I'm kind of like a mixed breed sitting up here, OK? And what I began to find out [is that] it is easy to throw rocks at people that you don't know, but the more you really get to know them and see Christ work in their lives, regardless of their belief system, you begin to try to be a bridge-builder. ... When you try to build bridges between people who've been fighting for hundreds of years -- hundreds of years before you ever even got into the discussion. There is an old adage that says 'he who stands in the middle of the road gets hit by both sides.' So as I began to progress, I began to understand that some of the dogma that I was taught in the Oneness movement was very dogmatic and very narrow and really not the best description of how I now understand the Godhead. I still did not want to switch teams and start throwing rocks back across the street, because much of what we do today is teach people to take sides. But I believe we are called as the Body of Christ to reconcile wherever possible.
MacDonald: Alright, but before we even get into -- and I think what you're leading us into is wise and helpful and it reflects why we're here -- how we relate to people who differ is on subject. Before we even go to that, I'd love to give you an opportunity to just -- like there were some particular Scriptures that began to inform you, you began to move and develop in what you personally believe. I'd like to just hear you articulate that.
Jakes: My struggle after I was ordained and consecrated in the Oneness church was in several passages, sometimes the doctrine fits; sometimes it doesn't. And when the doctrine becomes the primary thing you force it into many places where it doesn't fit. I really at this point in my life don't want to force my theology to fit within my denomination. I am open to hear whatever God is saying. Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River, for example, coming up out of the water the Holy Spirit descends like a dove, the Father speaks from heaven -- and we see all three of them on one occasion, or in Genesis "let us make man in our own likeness" or Elohim -- He is the one God who manifest Himself in a plurality of ways. Or what Jesus says, "I am with the Father, and the Father is in me" and understanding -- or attempting to understand. And that began to make me rethink some of my ideas and some of the things that I was taught. I got kind of quiet about it for a while. Because when you are a leader and you are in a position of authority, sometimes you have to back up and ponder for a minute, and really think things through. I began to realize that there are some things that could be said about the Father that could not be said about the Son. There are distinctives between the working of the Holy Spirit and the moving of the Holy Spirit, and the working of the redemptive work of Christ. I'm very comfortable with that. You and I have talked; [Jack] Graham and I have talked; there is very little difference in what I believe and what you believe. But here is where I find the problem: I don't think anything that any of us believes fully describes who God is. And if we would ever humble down to admit that we in our finite minds cannot fully describe an infinite God.
Driscoll: ... We all would agree in the nature of God there is mystery, and it's like a dimmer switch: how much certainty, how much mystery. But within that, Bishop Jakes, for you the issue between Trinitarianism and Modalism at its essence is one God manifesting Himself successively in three ways? Or one God three persons simultaneously existing eternally. ... And I understand, there is some mystery -- for sure. Would you say it's One God manifesting Himself in three ways, or One God in three persons?
Jakes: I believe that neither one of them totally did it for me, but I think the latter one is where I stand today.
Driscoll: One God, three Persons?
Jakes: One God, three Persons. One God, Three Persons, and here is why -- I am not crazy about the word "persons." ... My doctrinal statement is no different from yours except for the ...
Driscoll: The word "manifestation."
Jakes: Manifest instead of persons. Which you describe as modalist, and I describe it as Pauline. Let me show you what I'm saying. When I read 1 Timothy 3:16, I didn't create this. ... "And without controversy," which I think we have been bickering about something that is what Paul describes as a mystery, and I don't think we should do that. "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness. So God was manifest in the flesh." Now Paul was not a modalist, but he does not think that it is robbery to the divinity of God to say God was manifest in the flesh. And I think maybe it's semantics. But Paul says this before this fight was started. But He also says God "was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached until the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up into glory." Now, when we start talking about that sort of thing, I think that it is important that we realize that there are distinctives between the Father and the working of the Son. The Father didn't bleed, the Father didn't die -- [that happened] only in the person of Jesus Christ. Coming back for us in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has with us, but only indwells us through the person of the Holy Spirit; we are baptized into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't think any of that is objectionable to any of the three of us.
MacDonald: Not at all.
Jakes: So that is consistent with my belief system. I'm with you. I have been with you. I teach/preach that all the time. There are many people within and outside quote unquote denominations that are labeled Oneness that would describe that the same way. There are some that would not. But when we get to know people by their labels, then comes all the baggage of how we define that label. ... it's almost like the stereotypical ideologies we have about races. We have little ideas about denominations and movements. The reason I applauded what you said earlier about people who have dual affiliations: We are taught in society that if we disagree with any movement, we leave. We sever. Oh, you said something I disagree with we fall out and then we walk away. I still have fellowship, associations, relationship, and positions within and without Trinitarian and Onenness movements, because I believe that until we bridge the gap between our thinking and humble both sides and say, "We are both attempting to describe a God we love, that we serve, and that we have not seen. And that we are viewing Him through the context of the Scriptures, but that with a glass darkly." Why should I fall out and hate and throw names at you when all that I know and understand, be it very orthodox, is still through a glass darkly? And then face to face. None of our books about the Godhead or anything else will be on sale in heaven. You know why? Because we're only authorities down here, with our little kingdoms in this world. I think it's so important that we realize that our God is beyond our intellect. And if you can define Him and completely describe Him and say you are the end-all definition of who God is, then He ceases to be God. Because the reason Paul says it is a mystery, is that we deify the fact that God does things that don't fit our formulas.
Driscoll: Let me jump in here. I want to say a couple of things. Thank you for joining us. You don't have to be there. You were on the cover of Time magazine. You have options of where you go.
MacDonald: This isn't your biggest gig ever? [laughter]
Driscoll: It takes a lot of courage and humility to put yourself in an unscripted situation and to be outside of your normal tribe. And the fact that you showed up to dinner last night, I was shocked. I was like, "T.D. Jakes is coming to dinner?" I loved you. I enjoyed you. I really appreciated hearing your story of your family in context and your upbringing. And I walked away going, "I really appreciate getting to meet and know and enjoy that man. So thank-you for being gracious; thank-you for being courageous; and thank-you for being humble. And I think it might be helpful because, You're coming out of a Oneness background and out of a different context than a lot of us are. You've demonstrated humility, saying "I've been studying the Bible and I'm even changing some thinking as I'm studying." A lot of pastors will just defend their first position to death rather than humbly reconsidering it biblically. Maybe to help others understand you, on the flip side, How have you been treated and what has the response been from some who were friends that you don't want to throw rocks at, but because of your transition.
Jakes: That's what's funny about this, that's what's really funny to me.
Driscoll: Are you the heretic to them?
Jakes: Oh, very much so in many circles.
Jakes: ... Many of the circles that I came from would never allow me in their pulpit because they consider me a heretic. I have to read the article to see which heretic I am.
MacDonald: We'd be honored if you'd come be with us and let's all grow together.
Jakes: OK, and that'd be great. But I think the time has come for us to be willing to take the heat to have a conversation. Because if we do not do this, and we continue to divide ourselves by ourselves and compare ourselves with ourselves, we do it at the expense of decreasing numbers of new Christians in our country. We have to mobilize. Just for your consideration: This is the only thing that Jesus prayed that we can answer. He only prayed, "Father, I pray that they may be one even as You and I are also one." And this is the one thing that is within our power to answer, and we do not do it.
Driscoll: Can I ask a couple of quick questions, and then we can do whatever you want. Do you believe this is the perfect, inspired, final authority Word of God? [Driscoll holds up a Bible]
Jakes: Absolutely.
Driscoll: So you believe there's one God, Three Persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit? You believe Jesus was fully God, fully Man?
Jakes: Absolutely.
Driscoll: You believe He died on the cross in our place for our sins?
Jakes: Absolutely.
Driscoll: You believe He bodily rose from death?
Jakes: Absolutely.
Driscoll: You believe that He is the judge of the living and the dead?
Jakes: Yes.
Driscoll: And you believe that Apart from Jesus there is no salvation?
Jakes: Absolutely.
Driscoll: Thank-you. [applause]
MacDonald: That was crazy! I've just want to say this: I am so weary of people thinking they know -- they don't know I think you honor us and you humble us, a man of your stature and commitment to the Gospel and fruitfulness would come and sit in this room, let you and me ask him what he believes? ... I just want to say this, I think you've honored us, and you've shown immense humility, and I want to be in the world where I believe that Jesus Christ stands. And He's told us again and again He stands with the humble. "Get to those people who love my Son, who believe my Word, who express humility." And I'm honored to hear what you said. I want to just say, further, Mark, if I could contribute to this, that I feel deeply in my heart that God is both three and one. Three and one. I believe the Scripture is very clear when we get to heaven, we are going to see Jesus -- the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declare. Jesus is the only God we will ever see. When I was studying Revelation last year I was struck by the number of times that I saw in the book of Revelation that it almost seems in the text like the Father and the Son are on the same throne, and when I start to think about this, I believe in God eternally existing in three persons. But, the more I think about it, the more I feel like my head is going to explode, and I get a little weary of people who feel that they need to erase mystery and replace it with certainty as a test of orthodoxy. If what we have heard today doesn't satisfy, then the person is insatiable, and I'm ready to move on to a new subject. I believe that very strongly.
Jakes: Let me just make one little comment: One of the things that you said at the end, even as we talked about it before, and I've heard Jack Graham say this, too, that there is going to be one throne and there's going to be one God we can see. And I thought the more I hear everybody arguing about this, we're all saying the same thing. And we like fight about it to the death, and I just think that in the world that we're living in today, if we could just connect, and I know that there will always be distracters and there will always be people who define themselves by their differences rather than their connections, who are more comfortable with being known by what they are against than by what they are for. But when I hear you say that there's going to be one throne and one God on that throne, My soul leaps in celebration, and I hear both of us stumbling trying to explain how God does what He does like He does. I think THAT stumbling is worship. I think THAT stumbling is worship. I think the fact that we would humble ourselves and say, "Your thoughts and ways are beyond human comprehension" is what makes worship fill the room.
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Following is Malcolm Yarnell's full statement:
In response to T.D. Jakes' recent statements on the Trinity, we can affirm seven things, though with some cautionary statements included, especially about proper biblical exegesis:
First, the goal of unity in Christ (John 17:21-23) is both laudable and necessary. Yet such unity must be founded on the "truth" (John 17:17) revealed by God in Jesus Christ and recorded in the Word inspired by the Spirit. True unity requires that we confess the true Christ, the second person of the Trinity revealed in Scripture, and not a Christ of our own fashioning.
Second, the call for civility in Christian discourse is also much appreciated. We ought to restrain ourselves from loosely casting around such terms as "heretic" or "heresy." Before using these terms, we should be absolutely sure what the terms mean and that they actually apply.
Third, Jakes is correct that Scripture should shape our theology and not that we should make Scripture fit into our theology. And though I agree with him on this in theory, he has unfortunately misread Scripture to fit his purpose of "building bridges."
Fourth, Jakes is correct that we must know and speak about what we are for rather than what we are against. This is living with our eyes on the positive nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Fifth, it is encouraging to see T.D. Jakes moving away from the heresy of modalism. However, we should pray for him and exhort him privately and publicly to move into biblical orthodoxy without equivocation. Much of what Jakes stated about God the Trinity in this interview was correct. For instance he noted the simultaneous but distinct movements of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the baptism of Jesus. This is very true, though I might have described it differently.
On the other hand, Jakes also speaks errantly. This derives from the fact that he is effectively trying to hold two positions without seeing that his proffered mediating category is ultimately untenable. Jakes stated he wants to have "dual affiliations" with both Oneness and Trinitarian churches. This is the goal behind his equivocation, and he relies on unique terminology to enable his dual theology. Although stating he is willing to use "persons" to describe the Trinity, he is also clear he would prefer not to do so. (There have been orthodox theologians who also registered difficulty with the term "person," but typically they object to modernist meanings attached to the term, meanings different from the classical Christian understanding. Jakes, however, is rejecting the term not because it has been misunderstood but because it is offensive to Oneness Pentecostals, whom he deems Christian.)
T.D. Jakes wants to have both Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals, who are Unitarian Modalists, classified as brothers in Christ at the same time. But you cannot affirm both are in the realm of truth without removing the Trinity as a fundamental basis of the Christian faith. You cannot have both beliefs at the same time: either God is both three and one (as Trinitarians believe and Unitarians deny) or God is only one (as Unitarians like Oneness Pentecostals believe and Trinitarians deny). There is no bridging this divide without losing the Trinity itself, for He is the God we worship.
Instead of using the term "persons," Jakes has long confessed he believes the "one God" is "eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (see Potter's House Belief Statement at http://www.thepottershouse.org/Local/About-Us/Belief-Statement.aspx). Jakes then proceeds to use "manifestations" in ways he hopes that both Trinitarians and Unitarians might find acceptable. Jakes, moreover, argues that "manifestations" derives from 1 Timothy 3:16. But he misuses the term's meaning in that passage, wrenching it from its Christological context and transferring it to the Trinity. The only "manifestation" to which 1 Timothy 3:16 refers is the incarnation of God in Christ. God was "manifested" in the flesh of Christ; this Christ was "justified" or "vindicated" by the Spirit through the Resurrection; this Christ was "received up into glory." The manifestation of God was Christ in 1 Timothy 3:16, not the Father and not the Holy Spirit. The Father and the Spirit are indeed at work in this passage but not as "manifestations." Instead, the Father and Spirit work through the Son, who is God manifested in flesh so we can see and hear and touch Him. Jakes simply does not offer a proper exegetical basis for his unique theological term.
Sixth, with regard to the same biblical passage, let us recognize that although there is "mystery" in Scripture, this is no reason to paper over real differences in theology. Where God reveals, there is no more hiddenness in the mystery, for the mystery has now been disclosed, for us in Scripture. The point of 1 Timothy 3:16 is not to say that the Trinity is an undisclosed mystery but that the incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is the mystery of God now disclosed. An appeal to a continuing mystery in this passage actually subverts the passage's meaning. Moreover, to claim that Scripture is dark is a repudiation of the Reformation rediscovery of the clarity of Scripture. Scripture is clear and God has sent His Spirit to lead us into all the truth He inspired the apostles and prophets to record therein (John 14:26, 16:12-15).
Seventh and finally, as a fallen human being saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, I concur with Jakes that theology, the human attempt to explain divine revelation, is a "stumbling" matter. I also agree with Jakes' interlocutors that we are all growing in our theology. However, I must disagree with T.D. Jakes when he says, "we're all saying the same thing," because Trinitarians and Unitarians definitely are not saying the same thing. But I hope he keeps reflecting on Scripture, which he has been doing, for it clearly and unequivocally reveals the eternally Triune God, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, into whose entire name orthodox Christians are baptized.